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In the forty-eighth episode of the third season of the “Saturdays at Seven” conversation series, Todd Ream talks with Hans Boersma, the Order of St. Benedict Servants of Christ Endowed Professorship in Ascetical Theology at Nashotah House Theological Seminary. Boersma begins by discussing the working relationship he, as an Anglican theologian, shares with Matthew Levering, a Catholic theologian, and the way that relationship reflects advancing ecumenical relations. In previous generations, the thought that an Anglican theologian and a Catholic theologian would, for example, lead a project on sacramental theology would have proven impossible. Efforts such as the one Boersma and Levering led on that topic, however, proved how far relations advanced over the course of their respective lifetimes. Boersma then discusses his own calling to serve as a theologian, the role his study of history played, and the ways the Church Fathers and Resourcement theologians influenced him. That calling led him to begin his career at Trinity Western University, serve several years at Regent College (Vancouver), and now find a home at Nashotah House Theological Seminary. Regardless of where he served, a theme Boersma weaves into his reflections is the way theologians, while often finding formal appointments in colleges, universities, and seminaries, are called to exercise their vocation in service to the Church.
- Hans Boersma’s Theophanizing Love: A Metaphysic of Creation (Eerdmans, 2027)
- Hans Boersma’s Pierced by Love: Divine Reading with the Christian Tradition (Lexham/Baker Academic, 2023)
- Hans Boersma and Matthew Levering’s (eds.) The Oxford Handbook of Sacramental Theology (Oxford University Press, 2015)
- Hans Boersma’s Nouvelle Theologie and Sacramental Ontology: A Return to Mystery (Oxford University Press, 2013)
- Hans Boersma’s Heavenly Participation: The Weaving of a Sacramental Tapestry (Eerdmans, 2011)
Todd Ream: Welcome to Saturdays at Seven, Christian Scholar’s Review’s conversation series with thought leaders about the academic vocation and the relationship that vocation shares with the Church. My name is Todd Ream. I have the privilege of serving as the publisher for Christian Scholar’s Review and as the host for Saturdays at Seven. I also have the privilege of serving on the faculty and the administration at Indiana Wesleyan University.
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Our guest is Hans Boersma, the Order of St. Benedict Servants of Christ Endowed Professor in Ascetical Theology at Nashotah House Theological Seminary. Thank you for joining us.
Hans Boersma: It’s a joy being with you. Thank you, Todd, for having me.
Todd Ream: Over the course of the last 60 years, relationships shared by Catholics and Protestants have dramatically changed. Vatican II obviously played an important role in that, and the manner in which theologians and other scholars work together now also play critical roles.
To begin, would you share a few details concerning your relationship with Mundelein Seminary’s Matthew Levering?
Hans Boersma: Yes, Matthew is a dear friend of mine, whom I’ve known for many, many years. Uh, I forget when initially we met but we’ve known each other for many years and have embarked on a number of projects together. Um, we did a conference at Baylor that we organized together once a year for a number of years. Um, we did a conference at Regent College in Vancouver on biblical interpretation, which was great fun. Uh, and we put out a special issue of Modern Theology with all the contributions from the various speakers for that. We edited a book together, actually, The Oxford Handbook of Sacramental Theology. We for many years have been together on the Evangelicals and Catholics Together project for which we saw each other twice a year in New York.
So yeah, I’ve known Matthew for many years and I’m very grateful for the opportunities that have come since the Second Vatican especially, and in connection with Evangelicals and Catholics Together, especially since the early ’90s with the Evangelicals and Catholics Together. Uh, without those two factors, I don’t think our contact would have been possible now.
Todd Ream: In what ways would you envision you as an Anglican and Matthew as a Catholic, you’ve influenced each other’s theological commitments, enhanced them, expanded them, nurtured them?
Hans Boersma: Yes that’s true. Um, I don’t know how much I’ve influenced Matthew. Maybe I have. I’ve never asked him. Um, I, I may well have. I, I don’t know. Matthew is a very biblical theologian. He if, if you’ve read some of his books he, he loves to engage with the biblical text, and he loves to engage with, um biblical scholars. Um, so that’s not the, the, the sole domain of evangelicalism or of Protestantism.
Uh, thankfully, especially again, since the Second Vatican Council biblical scholarship among Catholics is huge, and Matthew is a, a, a great listener in and a great practitioner, I would say, in terms of, of biblical scholarship. Uh, whether I’ve influenced him in that regard, I, I, I doubt that there’d be very much in, in, in my scholarship that would be of interest there. But certainly he has influenced me.
Todd Ream: We’ll have him on soon enough and ask him the same question, so.
Hans Boersma: Yeah, please do. Yes. Certainly he has influenced me. During the years that we were especially in contact which is during the time that I used to teach at Regent College in Vancouver after 2005, I did a book on Nouvelle Théologie. I worked on Ressourcement theology, so the theology that led to the Second Vatican Council, you might say. And I was, I was deeply interested in Catholic theology, and in many ways I still am.
But for me, it was an existential matter. It wasn’t just a matter of dialoguing between evangelicals and, and Catholics. Uh, I was certainly teaching at an evangelical seminary or graduate theological school, Regent College. Um, but I was very existentially interested in Catholic theology to the point that I almost became Catholic. I didn’t in the end.
Um, but for me, it was not just a matter of dialogue. Uh, and, and most of my work really is, is, is not just a matter of, of discussion and, and, and engaging with other people, but usually I pursue questions that I personally wonder about or I’m interested in for, for whatever reason. Um, so my dialogue with Matthew and my friendship with Matthew was very personal to me.
Todd Ream: Yeah. Thank you. I want to ask you now a little bit more about The Oxford Handbook of Sacramental Theology that you and Matthew co-edited and Oxford University Press published in 2015.
To put the unique nature of that effort into context, do you think an Anglican and a Catholic would’ve worked together, especially on a project on sacramental theology, say, 100 years ago?
Hans Boersma: No. The answer is very simply no. And, and, and to add to that, at that time I wasn’t even Anglican. I was, I attended a Reformed church at that time and I taught at an evangelical school, evangelical graduate school. Um, this is 11 years ago that we did it. It’s hard to believe.
But no, 100 years ago this wouldn’t have happened. Uh, evangelicals and Catholics lived in two silos separate from one another, did their work separately from one another. Um, their relationship was mostly antagonistic. Um, to be sure, there were certain groups within the Reformed camp that would’ve been more open to Catholic thinking. Uh, you can think of Mercersburg theology, for example, that has traditionally been much more open to Catholic theology.
And certainly within the Anglican world there have been groups of Anglicans, at least such as the Oxford Movement in, in the 19th century, that were more open to Catholicism and to Catholic theology, and were often accused of being Catholic. Yeah, not as a compliment, but as an accusation.
But since the 1930s, you might say, that slowly began to change when Yves Congar wrote on Chrétiens Désunis, Disunited Christians, and caused a bit of a stir, frankly among Catholics for his openness to dialogue both with Orthodox and with Protestants. And when the Second Vatican Council issued its decrees on ecumenism and also on, on Scripture and the interpretation of Scripture how to understand Scripture Dei verbum that changed a whole lot. And from that time on Catholics and Protestants grew much closer together, you might say.
Now, that didn’t include, for the longest time still, evangelicals, because evangelicals have traditionally been much more antagonistic toward Catholics. Um, but also that has changed especially since the 1990s, that has changed. Um, so yeah, there’s been much more openness on both sides.
Todd Ream: Thank you. A decade after the publication of that project, what is your assessment about the current state of relationships between Catholics and Protestants, say, in North America, but also in Europe?
Hans Boersma: I would say that after the initial enthusiasm of the ’40s, ’50s, and ’60s about ecumenism there’s been disappointment. Um, there’s been disappointment in the sense that people often talk about uh, the winter of ecumenism in, in the sense that the initial hope that we might have a reunion of churches, a visible unity of Catholics and, and Protestants, and perhaps even Orthodox, that hope didn’t materialize, that optimism didn’t materialize.
Um, and it has turned out that there are some genuine issues, difficulties that have stood in the way of visible unity. And those issues, especially with regard to ecclesiology remain, and they have made it difficult to continue to make progress in the sense of progress toward actual visible unity. And with regard to Anglicanism and Catholicism specifically issues to do with women’s ordination and homosexuality have especially stood in the way of unity as, as you can imagine.
So in that sense, official/formal unity has, has, has not materialized, and I would say is unlikely to materialize anytime soon. That said, there’s actually a great deal of informal openness on both sides, Catholics and Protestants. Um, it’s mostly, I would say that the general attitude, both among Catholics and among Protestants toward one another has changed a great deal. Um, the sting has gone out of the relationship.
There’s a, there’s a recognition mutually that of course we’re Christians, and of course we’re brothers and sisters in Christ. Um, there is a genuine willingness on both sides to learn from one another to learn from one another’s dogmatic theology, to learn from one another’s biblical theology. There’s an interaction that doesn’t first of all look for where do the differences lie and how, how can we and should we polemically engage one another, perhaps condemn each other? All of that is not completely, but, but for the most part gone. And to my mind, that’s reason for a lot of thankfulness.
And it also seems to me that because of the personal relationships that have evolved through this, even though it’s hard to see how, how because of theological differences, but, but there is a hope, I think, because of that, that eventually, um some of these some of these theological issues might, might perhaps be seen in a different light, and we might have insights that we currently do not have.
Todd Ream: When you think about those relationships and the hope that they bear out on, and you’ve mentioned maybe a couple of them already, ecclesiology being one of them, on what questions would you encourage Catholics and Protestants to focus their attention and their energies in years to come?
Hans Boersma: So that’s, that’s a great question. That’s a question that Evangelicals and Catholics Together, we, we, we sort of discuss every, every three or four years whenever we look for, for a new topic. And it’s a difficult one. There’s always a discussion/debate among both Catholics and, and evangelicals on whether we should focus the, the dividing issues head on, or whether we should look for issues, topics where we’re, where we’re agreed for, for in, in many ways, and where we can make a common front. And I don’t think it’s an either/or, this, this question.
If you were to ask, what issues do we need, do we need to resolve together if we were to arrive at visible unity? Well primarily it would be mariological dogmas Mariology, in other words. And, and it would perhaps be ecclesial authority and, and specifically papal infallibility. Um, those would probably the issues that divide us most. Um, some evangelicals might say there’s a lot more but for, for most, I think those would be the main issues.
Um, but there are lots of other, other very interesting topics that we can and have discussed as Evangelicals and Catholics Together across the theological spectrum. Um, and I actually think that those things are helpful because they, they help the partners on both sides treat one another differently, and it opens one’s eyes to things that we otherwise might not see.
My hunch is the reason why we cannot come to agreement on, on key issues is, is that we actually don’t understand. It’s often true when we, when we don’t agree, there’s usually some sort of, some, some sort of obstacle that allows us not to see the other perspective properly. And I think that’s very true for, for the Catholic-Protestant dialogue.
Todd Ream: Thank you. I want to transition now to asking you about your own life story and your formation vocational formation as a theologian. You earned an undergraduate degree in history from the University of Lethbridge there in Alberta, an MDiv from the Canadian Reformed Theological Seminary, and a ThM and a PhD from Utrecht University in the Netherlands.
At what point did you discern that the study of theology, and perhaps although history is always there with you, but not formally history would prove critical to how you understood your vocation?
Hans Boersma: Uh, theology has always been dear to me, actually. Um, I grew up in a very theological family, in a Reformed home. Uh, my dad was a pastor, Reformed pastor, and we had numerous magazines uh, Church and, and theology magazines lying on our coffee table all the time. And much of the discussion, I think, in, in retrospect, was about Church and, and theology questions. So I’ve never not been interested in theology.
That, that said, initially, actually, even before I did my, my history studies, I did an education degree in the Netherlands. I grew up in the Netherlands, and I, I, I did education there. And I started as an elementary school teacher, actually, in in British Columbia. I looked for, for a job and, and, and, and I knew the principal of a school in, in British Columbia in Canada, and they offered me a position there. So I started teaching second grade for a year, and realized soon that maybe I should, I should not keep teaching second grade.
Uh, and I was interested actually at the time in becoming a missionary. Um, I was interested in missiology and, and, um in, in, in becoming a missionary. So that’s why after one year of teaching, I went back to school and, and went to Lethbridge, University of Lethbridge, and then to seminary.
Um, during my seminary training that changed. My interests changed especially as a result of a professor that deeply shaped me. Um a, a professor by the name of Jelle Faber someone with a Dutch background in, in the community that I’d grown up in. He was a his- uh, he was interested in systematic and in historical theology, and his teaching inspired me. Um, so my interests changed more in, in the direction of historical and, and dogmatic theology.
Um, so after seminary, not being sure what to do, whether to be ordained or, or, or, or to keep studying, I thought, “Well, I might as well postpone the decision and just keep studying since I love it anyway.” So, so my wife and I, and we had two kids by that time, we moved back to the Netherlands, and I did my PhD. Um, so it was a pretty natural thing. There was no, no sort of supernatural call that, you know uh, no bolt from heaven, as it were. It was more, very much a gradual thing.
Todd Ream: Yeah. What authors recent or past, and perhaps some of them were, were ones that you mentioned in relation to the handbook project and the discussions on ecumenism, but what authors have nurtured that sense of vocation for you over the years?
Hans Boersma: Yeah. There’s been a number and I’ve, I, you know, I’m a kind of guy that goes through phases of, of studying this and then that and then the next thing. I’m not an expert in anything at all. I just dabble in a lot of different things in turns. So, so the, the first theologian really to shape me was Richard Baxter, a 17th century Puritan, who was often accused of being a Catholic, actually. And, and, and on his understanding of justification, he probably was, even though he was a Puritan. But on faith and works, he was very much, very much Catholic in his thinking.
Um, and so I did my doctoral dissertation on Baxter’s theology of justification. Um, and he was also very ecumenically inclined. Really did a lot of work to try and, and, and reach unity with other Protestants as well as with Catholics in some ways. Uh, so Baxter influenced me a great deal also because he considered himself a four-point Calvinist, and I’d grown up as a five-point Calvinist. For those listeners of yours who are unfamiliar with that just ignore, ignore this point.
But the main thing is that Baxter did not believe that Christ died only for the elect. He believed that Christ had died for everyone. And I, I became deeply sympathetic to that position, both as a result of Baxter’s views and as a result of my doctoral supervisor, Cornelis Graafland Graafland in Dutch, who, who also was a four-point Calvinist.
And actually, the reason why I, why I went back to the Netherlands, or why my wife and I went back to the Netherlands is because of him. He had written a book on the history of Reformed thought that I’d read during my studies at seminary. And so I’d written him. He, he was a professor in Utrecht, and he was willing to take me on as a student. And he actually recommended to me that I, I study Baxter.
So after, after Jelle Faber Cornelis Graafland was a major influence on, on my thinking. Other theologians that influenced me through the, through the years when I became a pastor after my, after my PhD studies, I, I devoured everything by N.T. Wright that I could put my hands on. And since, since that time, I’ve become a lot more critical actually of Wright’s work, of his biblical, very historical, I now think of it, very historical approach to biblical theology. Become much more critical of that.
But I went through a phase where I read everything by, by Wright, so I was deeply shaped by him. And Wright took away my other points of, of, of Calvinism, my other four points. Um, so that was a problem. Uh, and the result of that actually is that I resigned in the end as a pastor simply because I, I didn’t think I was being true to my, to my signature to my subscription that I had, that I had put, put down. Um, but yeah, Wright was, was very influential for me.
Um, and then when I started teaching at Trinity Western University and started teaching theology, I was quite evangelical at the time in my thinking. But I was part of a, of a department that was, was very biblical in its orientation, almost all of them were biblical scholars except for two a colleague and, and me, a Justin Martyr scholar, Craig Allert, who is still there, and, and, and me. We were, we were the two theologians in the department. And I was forced, as a result, to reorient myself, being in a, in very much in a biblical theological environment that was very much historical critical. Um, and I, I had my doubts about that.
And I also reacted increasingly against the more evangelical mindset at the, at the university and at our local, local congregation, which was very evangelical, very pastor-centered. So I started reading the, reading the early Church fathers. Um, I started reading Irenaeus, first of all. Irenaeus is a huge influence on me. I started reading Irenaeus. I loved Irenaeus.
We had a, we had a discussion group with some Orthodox, Catholic, and evangelical scholars where we read Yves Congar on tradition. We read Henri de Lubac on, on how the Church fathers read Scripture. Um, for the first time, I came across the notion that allegory might not be such a bad thing after all. That was an eye-opener.
So yeah. So that, that changed my thinking a great deal, both in terms of how to understand Scripture and tradition and in terms of, of, of of how to, how to understand the interpretation of Scripture. De Lubac has been a huge, huge influence on me. Still is. Um, his reading of Scripture and his understanding of the Church Fathers has been, has been very big for me. Uh, it almost make me, made me a Catholic, as I mentioned earlier. Didn’t quite go there, but, but I’m very grateful for, for the influence that he’s been on me.
Todd Ream: Thank you. You served as a pastor, then you served on the faculty at Trinity Western University, and then you accepted an appointment to serve on the faculty at Regent College where you served for a number of years, and you’ve echoed that.
Can you talk about the discernment process that led you to Regent? And in what ways did your, your serving on the faculty at Regent continue to shape your sense of vocation?
Hans Boersma: Yes. Interesting questions. Thank you. Um, with regard to the discernment process I was actually asked by, by Regent College to teach a course this was 2004, 2005, to teach a systematic theology course because they were, they were short a professor of systematic theology. I didn’t realize that at the time, but they were searching for, for uh, someone in the Packer Chair, and they, they needed somebody to fill in for a course.
So I thought, “Oh, that’d be an interesting thing.” Uh, I’m only teaching undergrads where I am at Trinity Western. This would give me an opportunity to teach graduate students to really engage in systematic theology at, at a higher level. So I saw it as a challenge and started teaching.
Then I was talking to my friend Jamie Smith, James K.A. Smith, at one point. Um, he and I were, were quite close. And, um I, I, I was waxing eloquent with him about what a great course this was, what a great class, you know, and, and, and what a good time I, I was having. And he said, “Well, you know that they’re looking for somebody, don’t you?” And I actually didn’t know that. “They’re looking for a Packer Chair,” he said. I said, “Oh, are they?” I had no clue.
So then I, I talked to the dean Don Lewis. He has passed, passed away since, sadly. Um, but Don Lewis was the church history professor there, great man. Uh, also the dean of the faculty. And so I, I, I sent him an email and, and, and asked him if he would be open to an application from me, and he said, “Well, we certainly would be.” Uh, so uh, things went pretty quick from that point on. And the next year, actually, I joined I joined Regent College.
Um, you know, I mean, and when you use the word discernment, it sounds, sounds pretty heavy. Um, and, and in retrospect, maybe I should have done more discernment. Uh, it was a great fit. I, I loved, I loved going to Regent, but I, I remember one of my friends at Trinity Western saying “You have some pretty close friends, friendships with us. Like, how about that? Like, is it…”
And, and in, in, in all honesty, I, I, you know, I was, I was a pretty career-driven person. Um, not consciously perhaps, but subconsciously, and I thought, thought of this as just a great opportunity and had not given much thought really to what I was leaving behind. Some very good friends. Um, I mean, they remained good friends, but over time, over the years, I, you know, inevitably get to see them less.
Um, so that, that was a loss actually. And, and something I had not, I had not really given any thought to. I just thought of the opportunities. Um, and and it was a great opportunity to be sure, and maybe I would’ve said yes anyway if I had had more proper, had done more proper discernment.
And, and the years at Regent were, were very, very good for me and, and especially very good for me to, to arrive at, at a more mature theological position for a variety of reasons. Um, one is, I started studying Nouvelle Théologie, as I mentioned to you, 20th century Catholic thought. Um, Regent was very gracious to me in that after two years, they gave me a four-year sabbatical which I had hardly earned by that time. And I spent the entire year studying Nouvelle Théologie and wrote, wrote a book on it.
As a result of that, I came to the, to the recognition that what, what drove the Resourcement theologians of the 20th century was their understanding of sacramentality. Sacramentality in more broadly speaking, in terms of how we understand the cosmos, as well as sacramentality in terms of the ecclesial sacraments and the Church as a sacrament. Um, and that broader sacramental understanding of reality, especially is what I’ve called sacramental ontology that, that has shaped me ever since. So I’m, I’m very grateful for that.
What also has, has has, has shaped me is the, the dialogue, sometimes critical dialogue, with my biblical theology friends at Regent College. Uh, they were very historical in their thinking, and I increasingly became more theological in my interpretation of Scripture. Um, I became more Platonic in my thinking. Uh, I became a Christian Platonist in those years. Um, so without the kind of back and forth with my biblical theology friends at, at Regent, that just wouldn’t have happened. Um, I just had to articulate my own thinking. Um, and, and I did. Uh, so without, without Regent, none of that would’ve happened, so I’m very grateful for that.
Todd Ream: Thank you. You now serve on the faculty at Nashotah House. And in 2021, you were ordained a deacon and then inevitably a priest in the Anglican Church in North America. Can you describe the discernment process and that led you to Nashotah House and also to pursue ordination as a priest in the Anglican Church?
Hans Boersma: Yes. The, the theological changes, and I like to think of it as theological maturity that I, that I kind of reached during my years at Regent College made me much more of a high church person and, and, and much more grounded within the great tradition of the Church, especially the Church fathers. Not only the Church Fathers, but especially the Church Fathers. And increasingly, it became difficult for me to think of myself as an evangelical theologian, let alone a theologian in the Packer Chair.
I’ve always been thankful for that thankful also for the years that I spent within evangelicalism. Um, and it’s always been a great honor to be in the Packer Chair. Packer was a very ecumenical theologian, very interested in evangelical-Catholic dialogue, was very involved in it himself but was very much a Reformed theologian and an evangelical theologian. And increasingly, I came to realize, my understanding of, of, of sacramentality actually differs. And my understanding of, of Church and of the great tradition is not one of dialogue with it, but one of identification with it.
When I I was asked to teach, again, very similar to my start at Regent College, I was asked to teach a course at at Nashotah House with, again, with no intention of teaching there at all. I knew nothing about Nashotah House at the time. Nothing at all. Um, I just taught a course there and loved the place. It was this monastic community with morning prayer and Eucharist every day, with evening prayer every day, with breakfast and lunch together. And I thought, “My, this is, this is something very, very different.” And of course, I had theologically developed to such an extent that I, that this really appealed to me at that point.
Then a few years later this chair position opened up at Nashotah House, and I contacted the dean whom I, whom I knew, Gar Anderson. And, um everything again went pretty quickly from that point on. Um, it took two more years before I actually started teaching there because I had just had two years off from Regent College, which was very kind of them. And so I promised my dean at Regent that I’d stay on for at least two years after that, which I did. And but then this opportunity came up at Nashotah House, and I, I, I took it. So it’s been, it’s been great, it’s been such a good fit at Nashotah House.
And because I see theology as being in the service of the Church primarily, and as an expression not as an, as an, not primarily as an academic thing, but primarily as an ecclesial thing my, my ordination sort of logically followed.
Todd Ream: Thank you. I want to ask you now, step back a little bit and take a look at all of the books that you’ve written. You’ve mentioned different sort of influences and interests that you’ve pursued over the course of your career, but you’re the author or editor of 11 books.
When you look at the arc of that work, are there any common questions or common themes that you see that you’ve been sort of working to develop over the course of that span?
Hans Boersma: For sure, yes. There is a commonality. There, there’s a, there’s a variety of interests among those books, to be sure. You know, Church Fathers, biblical interpretation metaphysics atonement theology. There’s a number of different things, actually. But, but increasingly, I have focused both with regard to my, well, with regard to my patristic interests, with regard to biblical interpretation, with regard to metaphysics, sacramentality has been, has been key for me.
And that started with my studies of, of Nouvelle Théologie. Everything I’ve done since, so since the beginning that I worked at Regent College, everything I’ve done since has, has had to do with a participatory understanding of reality, so that the creative things participate in uncreative things and get their, get their being, their life and their wisdom, as Dionysius would put it from uncreated things.
Um, so that, so that the created world doesn’t stand on its own two feet, but is always and ever in existence through its dependency on, on, on the eternal logos, on the eternal word of God. That, that’s been at the heart. And, and, and my initial work in that, my initial Christian Platonist intuitions were very much that, intuition.
So I did this book, Heavenly Participation in which I drew on, on also on 20th century Catholic thought. And, and, and to be honest, in some ways I, I, I went with a hunch that I had. And, and, and it’s probably the book, if, if people pick up a book of mine, it’s usually that book. But it, it’s, I mean, it was a bit of a risk on my part. I mean, in, in retrospect, I, you know, I, I stand behind that book, and I’m, I’m, I’m grateful for that.
But I went out on a, on a hunch, and I’ve had to develop my own thinking as a result of that much more since that time both with how that affects how we read scripture and with regard to the question of how, how do heavenly and earthly things relate to one another the metaphysics of it. Um, so I’ve had to think a lot more about those things, and, and thankfully, I haven’t had to renounce my earlier position, but I certainly have, have developed it a lot more, yeah.
Todd Ream: Perhaps it was your book on heavenly participation, but when you look at those 11 books that you’ve authored or edited, does any one sort of stand out in terms of the vocational satisfaction that you derived from the process of writing it?
Hans Boersma: Yeah, that’s a difficult question. And to be honest with you, it’s hard to say for me which one stands out. Um, usually it’s the latest thing that I’m working on that stands out for me. So I just finished a book called Theophanizing Love, which is with, with the publisher now, with Eerdmans. And it’s, it’s a book on metaphysics, drawing especially Dionysius and Maximus. And, and right now that’s, you know, that’s the thing that I have the most satisfaction about. But that’s probably just because I’ve been working on it the whole time.
Um, for the rest, no, actually not, not heaven. I, I see certain shortcomings in Heavenly Participation that, you know, I wish I hadn’t done it quite in that way or slightly differently, and I have that with most of my stuff. So when I look back at it, I often think, “Oh, yeah, that’s okay, but,” you know.
Todd Ream: Thank you. Looking back at that arc then of book projects that you’ve committed yourself to, in what ways do you see that the practice of writing intersects with perhaps the practice of prayer or also the practice of contemplation?
Hans Boersma: That’s been a challenge for me. One of the great challenges and, and perhaps dangers for theologians is not to be true to Evagrius Ponticus’s comment on that, you know, that a theologian is the one who prays. And I, I call myself back or God calls, calls me back time and again to the need for that.
And certainly, let, let me put it intellectually first. I’m convinced that, that Evagrius is right about this, and that theology is, is not primarily an academic thing. It’s not primary, certainly not primarily a systematic thing, but is, is a matter of being called into God’s presence. Um, it’s mystagogical in character.
Chenu’s book Marie-Dominique Chenu, 20th century Dominican theologian his, his understanding of theology has been quite influential for me there. But, but really all of the Church Fathers would agree on that point. Uh, we’ve, we’ve ever since, since the 12th, 13th, especially 13th century theology has been, been closely, closely linked to the university.
Um, and I, I, I tend to think of that as, well, this is what it is, but, but not necessarily overall a uniformly positive thing. And so one of my more, more recent books Pierced by Love is, is one in which I especially push back against. It, it’s on Lectio Divina. Uh, it has to do with contemplation. You mentioned contemplation briefly. Um, it’s, it’s a, a book that deals with how to read Scripture. Um, but it, it, it reminds myself, first of all, and it also tells my, tells my readers that the reading of Scripture goes hand in hand with meditation, with prayer, and ultimately aims at, at contemplation.
One of the beautiful things of preaching, I love preaching. One of the beautiful things of preaching is that it, it sort of forces you through, through that process. You preach to yourself first of all, so in your meditation on the biblical text, that’s what you do. You cannot but pray when you, when you, when you write. Or you can. You can preach without praying, I suppose. But you cannot but pray when you, when you are confronted with a biblical text and when the text confronts you as a preacher.
Um, so I, I, I think preaching has often safeguarded me from just doing my academic number. I’m a fairly analytical person and, and, and a person who has, who has a lot in his head. Um, and I think that preaching has saved me from, from the worst excesses of that.
Todd Ream: Along these lines now, as our time begins to become short, I want to ask you, and you’ve sort of mentioned a couple of pieces in what I think, you know, would be your answer here.
But as a theologian and a priest, how have you now come to define the academic vocation as you exercise it here at this point of intersection between the Church and the university and where we live today?
Hans Boersma: That’s a very big question with little time. So how do I do that? Um,
Todd Ream: I will leave that you.
Hans Boersma: I, yeah, thank you.
Todd Ream: I just ask the questions.
Hans Boersma: At the end of the day we have to work out, out our own salvation with fear and trembling. And, and that is the task of a theologian for him or herself, and it is, it is also the task of the theologian to, to lead others toward the same.
I care very little actually today about academic credentials, academic accomplishments. Um, it’s not to say that these don’t matter and that they don’t have their place, it’s just that they, they, they, they have moved to the background for me and they matter much less. It always has been true to some extent, but especially in the last number of years, that what I write is, is, is something that I offer because of cultural concerns or because of concerns for the Church and, and often combined. Um, so that’s, that’s what animates me.
So it’s, it’s for the salvation, for, for the deification of the world. That’s what I, what I think about when I think what, what shall I write? What shall I do? Um, what, what, what should I study? That’s the primary thing at least. And that’s not to say that we shouldn’t do hard, hard scholastic, in, in between quotation marks, work. Um, but that should not be its own, its own end. It’s always toward a greater end.
Todd Ream: Yeah. When thinking about that understanding of the vocation as you exercise it then, what intellectual and/or moral virtues do you believe theologians need to cultivate in order to flourish in their vocation?
Hans Boersma: Yes, great question. Um, the, the, the primary virtue is that of humility, I think. Um, theologians can be very prideful, and especially when you start teaching and students maybe, maybe like your teaching, that’s a very dangerous, or people like your books perhaps. Uh, those are dangerous things. Pride is a huge, huge vice and, and, and, and, and humility absolutely crucial.
Uh, Maximus starts with self-love as the greatest vice and we all run that danger, and certainly theologians do. So self-love is a vice you want to avoid. Um, key, key virtues that I’ve often struggled with to have are, are courage and honesty. Um, courage and honesty, any academic, and certainly a theologian is, is tempted to talk along with whatever the cultural trends are. Uh, I’m certainly not immune to that.
Uh, I mean, maybe sometimes I, I’ve, I’ve been known as being contrarian, and I’m, I’m, I’m kind of thankful for that actually, if that’s true, to the, to the extent that that’s true. But I actually struggle with doing that. Uh, I actually struggle with doing that because I like to be liked, and most people, many people I suspect like to be liked. Um, and, and therefore honesty and courage and saying, “No, actually, this is what I believe, and this is important to say.” Um, and not everybody will like it, but it is important.
Uh, that, that sort of, so, so living with your conviction and, and the honesty and the courage to do so is, is one that I’ve often struggled with and I think is an important one.
Todd Ream: Thank you. For our last question then today, and especially this, the manner in which you describe doing theology then, in what ways do you believe that theologians could be of greater service to the Church? And in what ways do you believe the Church could also be of greater service to theologians?
Hans Boersma: Theologians can be of service to the Church, by a life of virtue primarily, by who they are, not just for what they say, by who they are. And I think they should be also of service to the Church by, by being true to their mystagogical task, by, by holding out to the Church what is the end for all believers, and that is the deifying life in Christ. Um, so that, that, that would be the theological task, and that’s how, how theologians in their work can be, can be of service.
Uh, the Church can be of service to theologians a number of ways, by offering them space to do their work offering time and resources, by not being afraid of them, by not being intimidated by them. One of the things that have often made, made, made my life in the Church most difficult is, is that people are intimidated by, by a theologian in their midst. Um, there’s no need for it generally, I think, at least for me. In my case, there’s no need for it because I don’t, I don’t think of myself as being overly intimidating but who knows? Um, but that’s, that’s something um, just, just, you know, treating them like ordinary Joe Blows would be a help, very helpful thing.
Um, there, I’m sure there are other ways. Um, asking them to serve in the Church is, is, is important because theologians need to be ecclesial people. Those are some of the things I think that come to mind.
Todd Ream: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Our guest has been Hans Boersma, the Order of St. Benedict Servants of Christ Endowed Professor in Ascetical Theology at Nashotah Theological Seminary. Thank you for taking the time to share your insights and wisdom with us.
Hans Boersma: No, thank you. It’s been a real joy. Thank you, Todd.
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Todd Ream: Thank you for joining us for Saturdays at Seven, Christian Scholar’s Review’s conversation series with thought leaders about the academic vocation and the relationship that vocation shares with the Church. We invite you to join us again next week for Saturdays at Seven.
