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In this episode of the Saturdays at Seven Podcast, Todd interviews Shirley Hoogstra, the president of the Council for Christian Colleges & Universities (CCCU), on her role in representing Christian higher education institutions, today’s challenges facing the Christian higher education, and the relationship between Christian education and the Church.
Full Transcript
Todd Ream: Welcome to Saturdays at Seven, Christian Scholar’s Review’s conversation series with thought leaders about the academic vocation and the relationship that vocation shares with the Church. My name is Todd Ream. I have the privilege of serving as the publisher for Christian Scholar’s Review and as the host for Saturdays at Seven. I also have the privilege of serving on the faculty and the administration at Indiana Wesleyan University.
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Our guest is Shirley V. Hoogstra, president of the Council for Christian Colleges & Universities. Thank you for joining us.
Shirley Hoogstra: Well, you’re so welcome. You’re one of my favorite people. I’ve admired you for a long, long time, Todd. I love your work. And I’m so glad that you’re a senior fellow, actually at the CCCU and have been blessed by that so what a joy for us to talk today.
Todd Ream: Yeah, I’ve been looking forward to it. Thank you. That’s very kind. You’re an attorney by professional training, who embraced a calling to serve as a Chief Student Development Officer at Calvin for 15 years, and then embraced a calling to serve as the president for the Council for Christian Colleges Universities.
When considering how to make those transitions and whether to make those transitions, how would you describe that process?
Shirley Hoogstra: Well, when I was in my law firm in New Haven, Connecticut, people thought I was absolutely crazy to leave my law practice. I was making really good progress. I was a partner. I had a great practice. I was well known. I had been president of the Bar Association and, and they said, you’re gonna do what? You’re going to going to, you’re not even going as the president. You’re going as a vice president for student life at your alma mater. They quickly saw that it was a calling.
So how do I, how do you make pivots in your life? Well, sometimes you actually do feel that the circumstances that are before you actually present a draw, a calling. And that’s certainly what happened with both my pivots from my law profession to Christian higher education, and then from Calvin to the CCCU.
It was definitely a set, that alignment seemed so clear. That was the first thing, and then I thought, well, with that kind of alignment, can I just ignore that? And I thought, no, I can’t ignore that. Then I ask myself, have you been prepared to do what you think God might be calling you to do? And I thought, well, you know, I think I, I think I have some preparation. Not all the, not everything, but I have preparation for what this job might require. And then are you excited about it? Like when you think about this move or when you think about are you excited? Now I think that excitement and sort of cautious, like, oh my gosh, what am I doing? Trying to ride right next to each other, right? And I think that if you don’t have some cautiousness or some like, oh, you know, you wake up and say, what have I done? Maybe it hasn’t been a big enough challenge for you. So this idea of excitement and then two other, questions, could I learn something new? And then the last question is, could I contribute something new?
And I remember when my colleagues that were, I was in my forties when I went to Calvin University, and I had a lot of really close law friends fellow lawyers. And I was at Calvin for 15 years. And when I would be in contact with them, they would say, we are so burned out by still by doing this 30 year stint. And I thought to myself, I’m so glad I made that change because I’m actually rising to where I think I’m getting really good at it. And, and so this learning curve in a new field was something that I think extended the joy that I had in my professional life. And the same thing happened at the CCCU. I took this job and I was like, whoa what am I gonna learn here? And I, I, I, had skills, but I had never done it before. And I learned a lot, and I think I’ve contributed some things, but it gives you such a rich sort of vocational life by being willing to accept new calls that could have both challenges and preparation to them.
So of course, I pray for wisdom when these opportunities present themselves. And I always check with my friends and family and say, does this make sense? and they’re, they’re just good conversation partners so that’s how you do it.
And I don’t believe you can make a wrong decision. And that’s the other thing. And so I, I’m pretty free from the fear of like, ’cause you can always quit. And you can always try to change it if it’s not working out. And in the long run, under the sovereignty of God, I just really think that God uses you wherever you are. So, I just never had the fear that oh this could be like a terminal mistake.
Todd Ream: Yeah, along those lines then, what advice would you offer to younger colleagues who are considering making comparable transitions? What are some of the takeaways that you think would serve them well?
Shirley Hoogstra: Yeah, I have sometimes done a graduation speech that says pray more, risk more, and worry less. I would say, pray more and say, Lord, I’m really wanting to give you my life. one of my life verses is from Romans where it says, give everything in your life, your everyday workaday life to God as a sacrifice.
And I thought to myself, if I really believe that and if opportunities came my way, I honored that Bible verse by saying, I will take a hard look. And so when, when you feel restless in a job. So I would say to young people are you feeling restless? Maybe that’s a stirring in your soul that something else might be afoot.
And then I say, keep your eyes up. You know, look around you. What are, what are interesting things that people are doing that you could actually join in? And often, volunteer work often gives you insights into other things that are adjacent to what you’re already good at. And then I would say trust that God will use you wherever you may land. Whether sometimes it can be a short term, sometimes it can be a mistake. You’re like, oh boy, what have I done? I don’t, I don’t, think this was the right move. Pray, pray for another pivot. But sometimes you say, I’m just, I’m gonna stick with this three years. I always say that. Do not make a move. And then if you don’t have to, make another move for three years. And that’s because I think it takes three years to settle into any new circumstance.
Todd Ream: I like those three prongs and think they also could make a great book title one day too. Just, just a thought.
Shirley Hoogstra: Yeah. I’d love to write that book actually. That’s been my life.
Todd Ream: As someone who receives frequent requests for guidance, counsel, and wisdom, to whom do you turn for guidance, counsel and wisdom?
Shirley Hoogstra: Yeah, I love a devotional book that I’m reading which is called New Morning Mercies, and it’s by Paul David Tripp. And I, it gives me so much daily wisdom. I can’t recommend it more highly. And then the other devotional work that I like a lot is the Alpha program, which is the Bible in one year. And it’s a, it’s an app.
And both of those resources have just given me wisdom for the expected and the unexpected. Another book that’s been so important to me recently is a book about invitations. I I don’t actually have the author for you, but it talks about God’s invitations on our lives that sometimes are expected and sometimes are unexpected. Are sometimes welcomed and sometimes not welcomed.
But every invitation, if you see those opportunities as God’s refinement of your life, you can enter into even an uninvited invitation with a sort of graciousness. And the Paul David Trip book, new Morning Mercies, just hammers every day God’s grace in our lives.
So those kind of external resources, I think, sort of feed my soul on a daily basis. Reading the Word of God having a regular prayer life.
And then I have a couple of things. I have a, a discipleship group. We call it our discernment group. I’ve been with them. It’s been a group of five individuals and I’ve been with that group for over 15 years, Then we meet every other Thursday at seven o’clock in the morning and we do it whether we’re remote or whether in person. We used to be always in person, but now we’re always remote.
These are folks that have heard the good, the bad, the ugly. when we get on the phone on a Thursday morning, we never know which one of us has actually got something that’s going to take a good part of the, the 90 minutes.
And and it’s just wise, wise questions. Wise observations. People really love each other in this group. And so we have our, the very best at, at heart for them. And then you know, of course if you are fortunate enough to have really close friends or family members I often will consult with them or-
And I’ll just say one other thing. I think that you consult with different people in your life, depending on what the questions are. I don’t, I, I, I, I, I don’t go to the same people if it’s like a legal question or if it’s a question where I need someone who’s got really good analysis about something or always is really objective. Or actually, I wanna go to somebody who’s gonna be really empathetic, right?
In my list of in my, my sort of, we call them a constellation of developmental relationships. That’s a Karen Longman phrase. A constellation of developmental relationships. in that group, God has provided such a breath of skillset. That when a question comes up, I think I have a friend or friends, who could be helpful on almost any question.
Todd Ream: Karen, being former, a former Chief Academic Officer there at the CCCU and just retired, as I understand from Azusa Pacific and moving back, moving back to the Midwest.
Shirley Hoogstra: Yes I just saw her last weekend and she’s going for a Fulbright. get that! She applied and was awarded a Fulbright and she’s off to Lithuania Christian College. She’s been a wonderful mentor and friend to me.
Todd Ream: That’s wonderful. Yeah.
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You are listening to Saturdays at Seven, Christian Scholar’s Review’s conversation series with thought leaders about the academic vocation and the relationship that vocation shares with the church.
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Since accepting the presidency of the CCCU in 2014, the world has changed a decent amount. And I was wondering if your role has changed perhaps in any ways from the time you first started to, you know, the role that you’re, you’re embracing right now.
Shirley Hoogstra: It’s a great question, Todd. When I came in 2014 the CCCU was in a, in a phase of really rethinking what it was gonna be like for the future. And then in 2015, we had a, a a really watershed case called Obergefell, which made legal in the United States same-sex marriage. And that was a watershed moment for the nexus between LGBTQ civil rights and religious freedom rights. They, they often will intersect in ways that can cause some tension.
But the other thing that was happening is that a government as a whole became more and more interested in regulating higher education. For instance, you’ll remember the Dear Colleague Letter. And now we’ve had, season after season after season of new Title IX regulations. And then of course HUD is housing is seeking to regulate the Office of Civil Rights, in the Department of Ed is, is much more active in the way in which they intersect. And students are much more active in filing complaints. And so we have really a much sharper, higher interplay with government than we’ve ever had, and that really has changed the CCCU work.
So luckily President Paul Corts said, I think we need a vice president for government relations.
And he then hired our first real professional in that, in that role in addition to the president. And that role has just expanded. So at the CCCU now we have a, foreperson, including myself, office that just really focuses on government relations.
And just like, like think Covid. With the Covid relief and the way in which government and higher education institutions have banded together to make sure that there was Covid relief, the employee retention credit. All of those things were never happening in 2014 and before. So that’s really big.
Todd Ream: Yeah. Along those lines then, in what ways does the CCCU invested in representing the interests of its member institutions in DC as well as perhaps also in various state capitals?
Shirley Hoogstra: Yeah. One of the biggest roles that I have as the president of CCCU but all of our senior leaders are charged with this, I just network, network, network. I am continually looking for friends, third-party endorsers, individuals who want to know more about Christian education- have a fuller picture of what we do. That work, you just never know when you’re in some kind of attention conflict situation, when you need one of those networked friends acquaintances to say, would you would you do a phone call in and would you actually explain how you intersect with Christian higher education?
Our goal is to be the leading Voice for Christian higher education and religious liberty in every court that is dealing with a religious liberty issue. So we have filed literally dozens of amicus briefs in the last five years, and we want the Supreme Court to say if there is a religious liberty issue that intersects with education like hiring.
And it could also be free speech. It could also be association, it could be restrictions on religious practice. Where is the CCCU brief? That’s our goal. And we are really, I believe attaining that reputation here in Washington, DC.
And the other thing it just happened recently. Lemme just tell you this quick story. So there was a national summit put on by the Department of Education on how are we going to respond to accessibility for students of color in colleges now that the affirmative action has been reversed And the CCCU was one of 200 people invited and there were only 17 associations and only three were faith-based. The Catholics, the Jesuits, and the CCCU.
And we were at that table interacting with all of the other institutions and they were, they were brought, and remember we have 4,700 institutions in the United States, and we have literally thousands of associations. And so for the CCCU to have a reputation that puts us at the table, is really important because we, they know who we are. They know that we’re really Christian. They know that we’re orthodox, and we, we have some counter-cultural ideas and still they want us in the room because they think that we are problem-solving people. That’s what we do day in and day out for our members.
Todd Ream: Yeah, I would, and I would say, you know, materials such as your snapshot that you send out as well as advance as well as materials that come up on the website. Doing a great job of keeping us appraised of those efforts and would encourage, you know, listeners to, to review those and pay attention to that because that, you know, as you noted too, that’s, that’s a significant shift in the work that the CCCU has done over the time you’ve been in that office. But also it’s a shift that has been desperately needed given the landscape in which higher education also operates.
Shirley Hoogstra: Well, you know, like Todd, like you say, we, we, want, like, we have a, a wonderful diversity website and, and built out with all sorts of resources because that’s become a, a, a controversial issue. And we want our leaders of color to be supported on our campuses. We want our faculty of color and our students of color to be supported through a lens of faith, right?
So in, in so many ways, we think Christian education should be in the messiest places because we have, the, we have the courage to enter in because of the foundation that we have. We love that.
And of course, even your journal, right? The Christian Scholar’s Review, the higher Education Journal a lot of our campuses have pro rege. A lot of our campuses have journals. We’re doing good work and good scholarship. And we want to get that out so that it sort of leavens the larger spectrum of higher education.
Todd Ream: Along these lines too, then what do you see as sort of the greatest challenges coming in the, the, the foreseeable future?
Shirley Hoogstra: You know, that that is the, the, question of the, hour. And we, we have no shortage of challenges. So yeah, you know, if our strength is what I often say, we are the educational mission for the world to flourish. I think one of our challenges are curriculum innovation to meet the needs of students.
Of course the, another challenge is the shrinking traditional age population. Our challenge is that we may be too slow in getting ready for the demographic ethnicity shift. And another challenge, of course, is the financial vulnerability that every every. educational institution is facing because of the, the prior three things.
The thing that I love about Christian education that I think is never going away is that we’ve got a distinctive answer to cultural decay. And our, our, our, place in the courts to make sure that religious liberty is really seen in a multifaceted way.
But you know, in terms of, of threats, we’ve got government unfunded or overly broad regulation. And Todd, we should, we should really talk seriously about this idea that religiosity in the United States is decreasing and student wise, their religious literacy is decreasing. And yet we need students who want to be religious and wanna be literate in things of faith.
And I think lastly, one of our challenges, of course, is the polarization. Whether you live in a red state or a blue state just the polarization of constituencies the- The belief that there’s things that are true and good and noble. And there’s a lot of skepticism about that.
Todd Ream: Of course lurking in there, there may be great opportunities too. Are there any that you might highlight as we move forward?
Shirley Hoogstra: I think that people are really yearning for the kind of purpose-driven education we have. one of the quotes that I love, comes from author and, and columnist David Brooks. And, and he says, and he, he, actually said to a group of our college presidents at a president’s meeting. He said: you Christian colleges have what everyone else is desperate to have: a way of talking about and educating the human person in a way that integrates faith, emotion, and intellect. And you have the recipe to nurture human beings who have a devoted heart, a courageous mind, and a purposeful soul. And almost no other set of institutions in American society has that and everybody wants it. So think about it. We are in the business of creating people who have a devoted heart, a courageous mind, and a purposeful soul. That’s what the world needs. So I actually see, you know, there are some, higher education institutions that if they went away, it wouldn’t matter because there are so many others that do what they do.
But for Christian higher education, there’s only in the US, you know, there’s about 150 of us. And then then add on the Bible colleges. There’s a, a small but mighty committed faculty staff and students and parents and donors who say, We can have devoted hearts and courageous minds and purposeful souls. We can want the good and the noble. We would want to refine our sentiments so that we give glory to God in a way that rises above the petty. Rises about the acrimony. That’s what we get to do. And I think that’s our biggest opportunity.
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Todd Ream: You are listening to Saturdays at Seven, Christian Scholar’s Review’s conversation series with thought leaders about the academic vocation and the relationship that vocation shares with the church.
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Historically, so we’ve talked about, you know, what’s changed, you know, in the last decade, decade and a half or- historically, what initiatives define the CCCU’S efforts to meet the needs of its member institutions?
Shirley Hoogstra: Well one of the things we’re really excited about, Todd, is that the, the Board has done a strategic plan and we’re almost to the adoption stage of that, and one of the core aspects of that plan is to assist our campuses again, and we would of course join with the, with Indiana Wesleyan and and others who are already doing great work with the integration of faith and learning.
And so the CCCU, you remember, I’m sure, because you were probably involved in the project, which was the, Through the Eyes of Faith Series. And that was a set of books that could be used in classrooms that would really assist in this understanding of the Christian worldview through a particular discipline.
Now since that, that’s about 25 years old. Since that time, boy, think about all the majors and minors we have that we didn’t have before. And think about the ways in which the complexity of teaching is even more rigorous. The complexity is just, you know, sky high.
And so the CCCU wants to be a, establish a collaborative center for integration of faith and learning. And the reason I use that word collaborative is we would like to be that collaborative place that’s, that convening coalescing space where we get the very best from all of our campuses and we bring it together sort of in a one-stop shop.
Because we see that campuses have really so many resources but if you’re the one campus that needs the resource, how are they gonna find that campus? How are they gonna find that? And so we, we just want to be that coalescing, conference-bringing, workshop, webinar practical and theoretical resource place for the integration of faith and learning.
That is our number one distinctive as Christian colleges, and we must be excellent at it And not just in a few places but in every space on a campus, and that’s the co-curricular as well as the curricular. And we are, we did a great, we had a really helpful survey from our chief academic officers and they said, boy would we be interested in these resources. So we’re, we’re gonna work with all of our best experts in that. And the presidents are excited about it.
That’s probably for our future, one of our number one focuses.
And of course, advocacy will always remain a really important focus. And I’ll just tell you one other focus, which is helping our campuses think about the discipleship of their students with a lens for sexual stewardship.
So we, of course more and more culture is is promoting a a non-biblical way of thinking about our sexuality. And we think that the CCCU can help our campuses think together about how sexual stewardship is actually part of discipleship. And that’s our second distinctive. If our first distinctive is integration of faith and learning. our second distinctive is discipleship with students so that they are and remain resilient in the face of culture.
Todd Ream: Yeah, critically important ways of, of serving the institutions, but then in turn, serving and meeting students where they’re at and you know, the helping them live faithfully not only during their college years, but develop habits for lifelong discipleship.
If I may go back to the, the first initiative that you mentioned, that’s very exciting to hear. One of the privileges of blessings that comes with serving as the publisher for CSR is I get windows into the exciting things that happen on any number of campuses.
But it’s difficult sometimes as you sort of echoed to, to find those and to to know where we can go to learn from one another about these, you know, sorts of conversations where good things are happening, where lessons can be learned. I think that will be a, a tremendous asset here moving forward.
Shirley Hoogstra: Well, you’ve already been a great thought partner. And Christian Scholar’s Review has been a good thought partner. Jesse Ryan, over the new editor of the higher education Christian Education Journal has has been an interested conversation partner.
I gotta tell you, it’s one of the most exciting things that I think are, is going to happen in the next three to five years. We’re, we’re. We are going to target in the, in a way, those particular identified needs that campuses bring to us. I, I can’t wait for the first conference. We’re gonna, in February of this, we’re gonna be in San Diego and the Chief Academic Officers, the Chief Student Affairs Officers and the chaplains are going to pick up in some of, some of this conversation in a in a preliminary way. But then we just really hope to bring our experts together to say what would help you most.
Todd Ream: Do you have an anticipated, you know, sort of timeline then moving forward from San Diego? that listeners can, can be looking for?
Shirley Hoogstra: Yeah, I think that the, the following year I would expect there to be an this kind of opportunity for both resource practice theory, philosophy.
Yep. And you know, and maybe I know one of the things you’re really good at other than writing about Father Hesburgh, which I really love that book, I didn’t know enough about him and now I do.
But the idea of how do we get new— CSR by the way, is a great publication for integration of faith and learning. Right? And but we need to to find out what are the needs of our campuses and how can we fill those needs and maybe there’s some publishing things that will happen.
Todd Ream: I agree. Especially being able to reach that next generation of individuals who are embracing the Christian academic vocation and resourcing them, them to flourish here in the years to come.
So that’s wonderful. Yep.
In what ways then it could, Christian scholars be of greater use to the CCCU. You know we’ve been talking about things that the, you know, and efforts that the CCCU’S preparing to make, but what can Christian scholars do to contribute to the health and then wellbeing of, of the CCCU? What ways can we be of support to you and your colleagues?
Shirley Hoogstra: Oh, thank you for that question, Todd. Well, first of all, letting us know when they are doing the kind of work that we could distribute. So most recently I received a, a new volume and it was a it was a new book. Looking at Faith in Psychology and Sociology. I thought, oh, this is terrific. You know, this is something we can put in our advanced magazine and, and get the word out. So when scholars are doing scholarly work, if they could let the CCCU know we can then distribute that.
I think also, scholars who are interested in working together, we have networking grants and we, we, again, just selected we’re, we’re gonna make an announcement within the next week or two about those individuals who’ll receive those networking grants.
Don’t give up. I would say to scholars, don’t give up on that important work of scholarship. Because if you’re not doing it, who is going to do it? And everybody has such a big teaching load. But I would say to scholars, don’t give up. The world needs your scholarship.
And then thirdly, there’s a concept called covenantal pluralism. And this is a Templeton Religion Trust endeavor. And they are really interested seeing if our Christian college scholars can be in more conversations with Christians scholars on secular campuses.
Isn’t that an interesting thought? You know, like, our scholars live in an ecosystem where they do get that support to do the integration of faith and learning work, the worldview work in terms of their discipline.
If you are a scholar on a secular campus and you want to advance in your career, you may or may not have the liberty of really exploring religious aspects of your discipline. And so if I know that Veritas is got a grant and they are forming cohorts of Christian scholars on secular campuses. And I know that some of our senior master Christian scholars on Christian campuses are being a resource to them. And so I, I would love to see that grow, where Christian scholars, to use an old phrase, enlarge their borders.
Todd Ream: Well that’s, that’s wonderful to hear. The, the programming that Veritas Forum is preparing to offer. And there’s a, you know, a wonderful growing network of Christian study centers, that are out there and providing important programming for our brothers and sisters who serve, you know, in so-called secular college campus environments.
What is your estimation then, if we may sort of change subjects a little bit about the relationship Christian higher education shares with the Church. If the Church is a primary public, if not the primary public we serve, what’s your estimation of the relationship that we in Christian higher education share with the Church
Shirley Hoogstra: Wow. It is it’s the students, it’s the church, and it’s the college. I, I wanna just quote Phil Ryken here, president of Wheaton College he wrote an article for the Deseret News and it said, “the enduring mission of Christ Christ-centered higher education is to educate whole persons to build the Church and benefit society worldwide.”
Lemme say it again. The enduring mission of Christ-centered higher education is to educate whole persons, To build the church and benefit society worldwide.”
Isn’t that just a beautiful way of thinking about the interconnectedness. And, and here’s, I believe that the church is an on-ramp to Christian higher education, and I think Christian higher education is a foundational container for the future of the Church.
So Christian higher education is actually educating the leaders in the churches for tomorrow. They’re not just the pastors, We’re looking at the congregants, right? We’re looking at individuals who have theological depth or who have a robust understanding of what it means to be a Christian in the world, who want to be in community with others.
So it’s this it’s this breathing in and out Church and college. Church and college. And you know, the story is that it used to be the churches that would birth the colleges. And now I believe that the colleges are going to be able to give back in remarkable ways. And I, I loved your question about how do scholars help the CCCU. I would ask the question, in this context, how can scholars help the Church?
Todd Ream: Yeah, that, that leads right to what I was gonna ask next and may answers in part, you know, that is, you know, where, if at all, do you see opportunities for the relationship between Christian higher education and the Church to grow. You know, one of the the hopes is that, you know, Christian Scholar’s would play a considerable role in that in that regard. But yeah. Other opportunities that you see?
Shirley Hoogstra: Well, let’s the opportunities between the church and, and and the universities- number one, I think that Christian scholars can continue to show the relevance of faith in life because so many young people and and and older people too are thinking, well, what’s the relevance of this all? And walking away and saying, I just don’t see it. And so when the scholars write, I’m gonna call it lay pieces, right?
So you’ve got sort of a scholarly sort of frame or you have a, what’s a, just a lay piece sort of frame. That could be very important for that to be used within the church setting. This is why religion, faith is so relevant to every single question of life.
I also think that another way that the colleges could feed the Church is to make sure that we are producing the kind of youth ministers, the kind of ministers, but also I’m gonna call ’em bi-vocational people.
So let’s say you’re an engineer and you go to a small church and they need a youth prep. They need a youth leader, right? Or they need someone to lead Bible study. They may not be able to have the paid staff to do that, so they’re gonna rely on our graduates. Who should be able to go in and lead any Bible study and should be able to actually talk and mentor well young people.
And I’m gonna end with this one. I also think that the Church needs to make the case for Christian higher education in the pulpit multiple times a year. If you want resilient disciples, and if you can spend four years with Christian mentors, with subject matter that can enliven your heart, your soul, and your mind, pastors should be promoting and endorsing Christian higher education.
Todd Ream: That’s wonderful. And a wonderful note for us to end on today in terms of our conversation.
Thank you. Our guest has been Shirley V. Hoogstra, president of the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities. Thank you for taking your time and sharing your wisdom and insights with us today.
Shirley Hoogstra: It’s been wonderful to talk with you, Todd. Thank you so much.
Todd Ream: Thank you.
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Thank you for joining us for Saturdays at Seven, Christian Scholar’s Review’s conversation series with thought leaders about the academic vocation and the relationship that vocation shares with the church. We invite you to join us again next week for Saturdays at Seven.
