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In the twentieth episode of the second season of the “Saturdays at Seven” conversation series, Todd Ream talks with Wendy Wang, the Director of Research for the Institute for Family Studies. Wang opens by discussing the research she and her colleagues conduct concerning the Success Sequence—a set of three steps that when followed in order (high school graduation, employment, and marriage) greatly increase a young person’s chance of flourishing in relation to a variety of measures. Wang offers details concerning her own vocation including her early research experience in China, coming to the United States to do doctoral work in sociology, and lessons she learned when working in a variety of roles for the Pew Research Center. She then shares her insights concerning the ways sociological data can be of benefit to policy makers seeking to improve the lives of families and children, occasions when we may ask too much of data, and occasions when we may ask too little of data. Wang then closes by exploring ways the data she and her colleagues collect can be of benefit to a variety of institutions including the Church, Church-related colleges and universities, and ways the Church and Church-related colleges and universities can work together when striving to improve the lives of families and children.
Todd Ream: Welcome to Saturdays at Seven, Christian Scholar’s Review’s conversation series with thought leaders about the academic vocation and the relationship that vocation shares with the Church. My name is Todd Ream. I have the privilege of serving as the publisher for Christian Scholar’s Review and as the host for Saturdays at Seven. I also have the privilege of serving on the faculty and the administration at Indiana Wesleyan University.
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Our guest is Wendy Wang, Director of Research for the Institute of Family Studies. Thank you for joining us.
Wendy Wang: Thank you, Todd. It’s such a great pleasure to be here.
Todd Ream: Based in Charlottesville, Virginia, the mission of the Institute for Family Studies is to strengthen marriage and family life and advance welfare of children through research and public education. I’d like to start by asking in particular about one of the IFS’s recent initiatives known as the Success Sequence. Would you begin by describing the key components, and what about the Success Sequence garnered your attention?
Wendy Wang: The Success Sequence is a formula to help young adults to succeed. And it involves three steps. First get a high school education and then have a full-time job, then get married before having children. So these are the three things that when young people follow these three steps, their chance of being in poverty is dramatically reduced. I think almost 97 percent are not in poverty and 90 percent of them are in the middle class.
Todd Ream: At what point in a young person’s life should messages concerning the Success Sequence begin to be shared?
Wendy Wang: I would say as early as possible, because these days, young adults are, like you would say, children are exposed to so many different media, internet, and messages, and so I would say as early as possible. But in terms of, you know, practical matters, you know, I think middle school is a good starting point because you know, like they have their own thoughts or asking questions.
My daughter is 10. She already knows, like marriage and children, all that stuff. Because, you know, one time we were talking about something and she’s like, someone had her children, I think I was mentioning this person has very old children, like, 25 and he’s, like pretty young. It’s like, wow, so he got married that young. So she’s already connecting that marriage and children, it goes together. It’s not like, okay, you have children. There’s no other way she’s thinking about it. So I think it’s really good to teach kids and to kind of give them the concept of that.
Todd Ream: When teaching kids about the Success Sequence then, which exercises or means of sharing that message prove most formative to them?
Wendy Wang: I would say modeling is probably the most effective way. Speaking itself it’s not as strong because it’s especially if you’re not the person who actually have done that and it’s your kids look at you saying hey, you’re not doing that, why am I doing it? Right? So that’s the thing.
But unfortunately a lot of young people here in certain communities, they actually don’t have access to this message. This surprised me because I came from China. That’s what everyone talks about, even regardless of your background. And, you know, even in every corner of society, kids know that.
But here in communities where, you know, the single parenthood is like a norm. And then young people don’t actually get that message. So I think that’s why the school could play an important role in spreading this message, teach these kids how important education, work and marriage. And, and they, and if they follow these steps and they, their chance of being successful is really, really high.
Todd Ream: So the good news, or potentially the bad news for parents is, if you want to shape a young person’s understanding, your son or daughter, in terms of the success sequence, modeling then and how one goes about ordering their priorities in their life, proves most effective.
Wendy Wang: I believe so.
Todd Ream: What then, you mentioned poverty as being one of the challenges that young people would face if they failed at any point to follow the steps in the Success Sequence, what are some of the other challenges they might face?
Wendy Wang: Poverty and also mental health because this is the most recent report I did about Success Sequence. And we find that not only that young adults who follow Success Sequence have a better economic outcome, but also they have better mental health outcomes. They’re happier. They’re healthier.
This is not just because they have more money. This has a lot to do with the fact, having these things in order and getting married before having children, you know, would make their lives more stable. Their marriage is more stable. They’re less likely to get a divorce. So they have a stronger relationship with their spouse and all these contributing to their mental health and happiness.
Todd Ream: In what ways, if any, does an appreciation for the Success Sequence in a young person’s life relate to an appreciation for delayed gratification? One of my father’s favorite lessons growing up, I must add.
Wendy Wang: Yeah, I know. It’s a very interesting connection. I didn’t think about it. I think this Success Sequence in a way that really works similar as a delayed gratification, right? So if you, the young adults can wait to have sex and to marriage they can work hard, get their education, work, marriage, and then they have children, and, and then they’ve already built all these great foundations in life. And then all these things benefit them later in life. Yeah, greatly.
Todd Ream: We’ve already talked about teachers and parents potentially playing a critical role in a young person’s life in terms of how he or she appreciates and then lives out the Success Sequence. Are there other figures who can play such a role either directly or even indirectly?
Wendy Wang: I think young adults are, like I said, exposed to so many different messages in life. There are a lot of influencers these days. And if they’re online, they click on the video clip, YouTube and TikTok. There’s just so many figures out there to influence their minds. I think as parents, as teachers, we should do a good job, trying to, you know, educate and teach young adults, but now so hopefully the public media, the culture and you know, even the songs and artists and I think they’re all these they all have influence. And so I’m hoping that if we can spread the message wide to the public and then the young adults, young people can actually get it from other venues as well.
Todd Ream: Thank you. Thank you.
I want to transition to asking you about some of the details of your own life now and how you came to be passionate about the work that you do. You began your career conducting research for the Population Research Institute at the Shaanxi Academy of Social Sciences in Xi’An, China. After concluding graduate study in sociology at the University of Maryland, you served as an analyst, a research associate, and then senior researcher for the Pew Research Center. What experiences proved most formative in terms of your development as a social scientist?
Wendy Wang: I’m glad you touched on my experience in China. It feels like ancient history. I haven’t really thought about it for a long time, but looking back, I do think those years were formative as a fresh graduate from college. I was working for the Social Science Academy there in Shaanxi province, and I got the opportunity to do some field trips and conduct focus groups in some of the poorest areas of my province.
And I got to see these children. They didn’t even have clothes to wear. There’s no school bus at all, of course, and back then, and they had to walk all these miles—like I remember hearing like walking two hours per day to school on foot. That was crazy. I think I came from a working class family. I thought, you know, it’s not like we were rich or anything, but there were children like in such condition.
And I remember we did some policy report and give some recommendations and I felt like I was able to probably using my research and help to some degree. So that was an experience that really made me realize that research could help and also make me realize that I actually didn’t know a lot about things and which led me to apply for graduate school in the U.S. and that’s, you know, how I got here.
I think the experience at Pew Research Center was really a valuable one because I was a PhD, a fresh PhD, and that was the first job I got. After I got my PhD, I remember a lot of my friends at the time, they all chose to stay in academia. I just felt like I didn’t have much real life experience in the U.S. and all I learned was from books and seminars. And I was like, how do I teach the students just the book to book knowledge? I don’t feel like I had much to offer.
And so that’s good that I was in DC, so I was able to get some research jobs. And the Pew Research Center was a great place to work. And then because I got to work with journalists survey methodologists, and a lot of different people there. And then I learned a lot through working together with my colleagues at the time.
Todd Ream: What kind of topics or what was the range of topics even perhaps at the Pew Research Center that you were given the opportunity to pursue?
Wendy Wang: I would call that “The Project.” We call it a “Project.” It’s called the Social and Demographic Trends. So we study the trends that are happening in the country and focus on the social and demographic issues as a named cause. So study work, family, and marriage. And so it was a lot of topics that, you know, like the journalists are interested in and as a sociologist, that’s just, that was just like a perfect fit for me.
Todd Ream: Thank you. Were there any mentors of considerable impact in terms of your development?
Wendy Wang: Absolutely. I would say in graduate school, my mentor Suzanne Bianchi was really, I can’t think about a better mentor than her. Unfortunately she passed away very young, at age 61, but after I already graduated. And she was a wonderful mentor and she was very successful in her career but also she had a great marriage and they raised three successful children.
And so I just thought, at the time I often talked to her, I thought that she had a perfect life. I was like, it’s hard for women to have it all, right. I mean, as sociologists, we all studied that. And so yes. And then she always pushed me to do the things that I have to admit, sometimes I didn’t want it to. Do more analysis. I was like, this is done. I think it’s okay. She’s like, you know, there’s something more you need to continue. So yeah, that she absolutely pushed me a lot and then to try to do the best and to be just meticulous about data, about what I was trying to pursue, that really helped me.
And then at Pew, I didn’t have official mentors, but I worked with journalists. My boss, Paul Taylor, was a Washington Post political reporter for many, many years, and he was the best writer I knew. And then also another colleague, Rich Morin, he was also a Washington Post reporter. So he had his own column, and he wrote about different things at the time.
So, yeah, so I think working with reporters and journalists helped a lot because you know, I was an academic, I’m still an academic, but I think it just that it’s hard for me to try to organize my research to target an audience that the public understands, and I think the journalists help you to do that job. And also, you know they helped me in writing, like writing tremendously as well, yeah.
Todd Ream: I’ve always thought one of the things that truly good journalists do well is they take very complex ideas, issues, challenges, whatever it may be that they’re grappling with at the time, package that in a way that is accessible for the public but not lose any of the complexity. Whereas academics, we sort of get stuck in, I’m somehow betraying the complexity of what I’m doing or betraying the jargon or the language of my discipline or my field, but good journalists have the ability to do that.
Wendy Wang: Yep, and they see the bigger picture. I think that’s the part that we just dive into the details and try to figure out the small angle of the question, but the public don’t really go that deep in the beginning. They just want to know the bigger picture.
Todd Ream: Were there any authors or are there any authors still to this day who have a greater impact on you than perhaps some others?
Wendy Wang: I really like to read, you know, Arthur Brooks. He used to be at AEI. He was a president at AEI. He’s a great speaker and also a great writer. And David Brooks too. And he writes for the New York Times. Yeah, so I like their writing style.
And also my colleague, Brad Wilcox, I have to mention him because I worked with him many years and a lot of pieces are like op-ed pieces for all these newspapers and I love his writing and also helped his book as well. I provided the data, but he’s the one who’s writing. So yeah, I think I’m, this is still a learning process. I’m still trying to do better. I think writing is almost an art. It takes time.
Todd Ream: And Brad is certainly one of those who has discovered, developed the ability to communicate complex issues to a wider public and use the platform that he has as a university professor to be able to share those messages.
Wendy Wang: Yeah, absolutely.
Todd Ream: At what point did you come to understand that the relationship shared by family well-being and societal well-being would prove central to your vocation as a social scientist? You mentioned some of the studies that you did at Pew but when did it sort of become central in terms of how you understand, uh your vocation?
Wendy Wang: My parents got a divorce when I was 15. And they fought a lot, and that was not easy for me. I’m just looking back on all the stuff that I’ve done over the years, and I feel like maybe naturally I was just drawn to the marriage issues because from an early age, I realized that family, especially, you know, the family we grew up with has a long term impact on children. Even to this day sometimes I think about it like, oh, I didn’t realize I’m like this because what, what I experienced back then. So I think it’s really interesting how it has a long lasting impact.
And so, I mean, especially now I’m a parent myself. And I just realized some of the things. So I think family is really the most important thing in a person’s life and as a researcher, I’m so fortunate that I can study the things that I’m passionate about. And I think a lot of people think about individuals as the unit of the society, I disagree. I think the families are the basic foundation, that unit of the society.
We are social animals, relationships and marriage, and really close relationships are the things that make us thrive, make us feel happy. And you know, it’s just that’s the best thing that we have.
Todd Ream: Thank you In what ways do you believe, and we’ve talked a little bit about this already, but in what ways do you believe that the social sciences can be of service to families?
Wendy Wang: So social sciences scientists can do a lot to serve families. At the Institute of Family Studies we do research and public education. So we have all this new research. I say new because we’re studying the old issues now, but we’re trying to find new angles, use new data and study some of the issues that try to really help to advance you know, strengthen marriage and advance children’s well-being.
And also we capture new things too because as we, the society progress and we have new issues coming up. Just like recently, we helped to provide some research support to the teams and how social media and online platforms have a negative impact on teens mental health. And we collaborate with a lot of experts in the field. And we actually, with our help, get some of the states to pass the age verification law for minors. And so it’s really exciting. So I think social scientists definitely can help families.
Todd Ream: In what ways can social scientists be of greater service, then, to policymakers, who in turn are seeking to improve the lives of families?
Wendy Wang: Yes, so that’s what I was thinking. We do research because we’re researchers and we try to identify a problem, try to find solutions. And you know, we’re not natural, we’re not scientists, I would say social scientists are not like other scientists. We study people. And so the people are not objects. It’s not easy to study, right?
So we try to conduct surveys and get the people’s opinions and experiences, trying to generalize things. But I also feel like sometimes that we could be overgeneralized, generalized things, right? There’s definitely outliers. Definitely people don’t follow the main pattern, and so we also need to be aware of that.
And so I think the social scientist is like you use this research tools and try to do solid research and to provide policy recommendations. But we also have the obligation to kind of tell the policymakers, by the way, there’s some things that’s, you know, not all things all goes this way and we don’t want to stereotype things either. So a lot of nuances are there related to this research. So yeah, that’s why I think we can probably do a better job that way as well.
Todd Ream: I want to ask you now a couple of details about your day and what you do on any given day for the Institute for Family Studies, which for eight years you’ve been the Director of Research there. What are your responsibilities? And with so many needs, how do you and your colleagues determine and which possible initiatives to invest time and resources?
Wendy Wang: So I oversee and manage the bigger projects at the Institute for Family Studies and also I conduct surveys and design, we do about probably three surveys a year. That’s a lot, actually. And then I also do some demographic analysis and write blogs. And I also do my own charts and I like doing, you know, present the data and graphics. So it’s just a little bit of everything.
Todd Ream: I want to go back to, you were talking about data and making sure we didn’t objectify people who are represented by the data, that we honor the outliers, individual stories that may not be fully representative in terms of, you know, what we see, you know, in bulk, how much can data really tell us about family well-being? And in what ways are we asking too much data or in what ways maybe are we asking too little?
Wendy Wang: That’s a great question. Like I said, we are trying to be objective and do the best research we could. But on the other hand, we’re studying humans. It’s complex. We have emotions. We’re not like a scientific experiment, right? It’s hard.
Like, I would just say take with a grain of salt when you read the data findings and it’s the data can only kind of tell you what people think what they experience, but it doesn’t mean that this is everybody experiences is probably like, and then like when you do the survey, there’s margin of error. There’s always a margin of error. So you don’t really know what you’re marrying is the true that the population is experiencing. Right? And then every step of the research, there’s error involved.
But I think, how I come across this is I think if you see multiple surveys pointing to the same direction, if you see that this is what your, your experience is in life as well, like your friends and your colleagues are all, we all kind of have a similar feeling, then I think that’s probably true. So I think that’s how I sometimes see, you know, if this is truly what the data is telling you, or this is just an error. Maybe the respondent was just not giving you the right answer.
Todd Ream: I often found if you get a small group of parents of teenagers together, it’s amazing how they start talking about common experiences that they may be having in their home, which do likely have some connection data points that are out there, uh.
Wendy Wang: Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of the things that we study actually come from this. Like people started talking, you know, like, oh, this, we all have this shared experience. For example, just like IFS have this initiative called Family First Technology. So that’s a new one that’s actually built on a couple of years of research on how technology affects families and young adults. And that started because a group of moms were coming to, I think at the time, Brad and Michael, that’s our executive director. They were talking about how their children are just online all the time and they’re worried about it.
So that’s how I got us started about studying that and then they, they grow and then become a big project because everyone that’s like common experience, not only for you, but like, if you look at society, people resonate with this experience. And that leads to now we have this law about age verification. I’m like, oh, this is great. So it’s amazing. It’s an amazing experience.
Todd Ream: Yeah.
Perhaps technology is a piece in this or in my experience you know, in terms of raising teenagers as my wife, Sara, and I did perhaps it’s a considerable piece in this but over the course of your career, how have the needs of families changed?
Wendy Wang: I came to the States in 2000, so it’s been almost 25 years. A lot have changed and a lot have changed. One thing I was thinking is that, you know, at the time, you know, China has a very low fertility and we know that China has a One Child Policy, so it’s like very low, 1.2 right now, probably. I remember 2000 and I was fertility wasn’t an issue for us to study because it wasn’t a problem. U.S. still have like 2.1, 2.2 replacement level for fertility, meaning like the women are having it on average have about 2.1 children. So that’s good enough for society to sustain and we don’t have to worry about fertility.
But now, this is 20, as this is 25 years later, we have the lowest fertility now, record low. I mean, I’m saying, I’m not saying in the world, but like compared to ourselves 20 years ago. And only the fertility rate is 1.6, so we’re joining the other developed countries as one of the low fertility countries now. That’s a pretty big deal.
And also families are becoming a lot more diverse and people are delaying marriage, less people getting married, which is a key thing that I study. The interesting thing, the only bright part about this is the divorce rate is at all time low right now. I mean, there’s a lot of explanations and I think people these days care about their relationships and then try to build a better relationship. I think that’s wonderful.
And then, but another thing is a selection issue because if you have fewer people getting married and those people who get married are the ones that really want to make it work. So yeah, so it’s, there’s a lot of changes in family.
Todd Ream: In what ways do social scientists needed to change their approach, change the questions they’re asking, change the means by which they’re collecting data?
Wendy Wang: So social scientists are trying to catch, catch up. I mean, we’re, we’re trying to catch up and see, okay, what are the things that’s changed? We wanted to identify, identify first, what are the changes and try to figure out what is behind this. And so a lot of tools are developed.
And, you know, because I was trained in survey and demographic analysis, I think that now they have a lot more new tools involved, like a big data and some other tools to try to figure out but I think we’re always kind of lagging behind a little because things happen first. And we identify that. And when we, when we try to study it, and then by the time we figure out and things are already moving to another level already, so yeah, it is interesting.
But I mean, that doesn’t say that we’re not trying. I think especially with my experience at Pew, I just feel like a lot of times identifying the issue or just looking, knowing what is happening, that’s a first step. That’s a very important step to know, yeah.
Todd Ream: Thank you. As we move toward the close of our conversation, I want to ask some questions about institutions and how institutions intersect with the well-being of families and children. We’ve talked about, you know, families as an institution. We’ve talked about, you know, the possible relationship that schools can have early on in our conversation.
But in addition to the families and schools, what other institutions prove critical when strengthening marriage and family life and advancing the welfare of children? Are there institutions perhaps at work here that implicitly or indirectly impact that families have to adjust to that we need to be taking a look at or considering as well as the ones that we think about in explicit or direct terms?
Wendy Wang: So like you said, there are a lot of institutions here. In addition to schools and family, we also have the media, we have the culture, we have the communities, we have our economic system. So, yeah, there’s a lot of things that could affect families.
And also I think the thing is a lot of these institutions are not really giving the same messages. So young today getting mixed messages. So like at school, teachers are teaching something and then in your house, your parents are telling you something. But then when you go on social media and the influencers are telling you something else. So I think it’s hard actually for young adults to really try to understand and try to have the ability to, to figure out what is the right message for them.
Todd Ream: For, for parents in particular, in what ways, are employers impacting their ability to cultivate healthy families and in turn, meet the needs of their kids? Is there any sort of consistent direction in which we can say employers have been moving in terms of policies, practices, and cultures that, you know, terms of how they play a role?
Wendy Wang: I think one of the silver linings of COVID is the whole work from home movement, I say because that time that we got locked. And so people have to stay at home and then you work from home and then you, of course, there’s more conflict probably with family members, but a lot of parents actually appreciate that time with their kids so I think after COVID and a lot of employers are trying to adapt this, you know, work, work, work from home program, I know still some of my friends in DC, they work for the federal government. They still can work from home, which is a really great, wonderful thing to balance work with family, especially for people who have children. And so I think that’s a great thing.
And actually, I don’t know, if there’s a research about it. And I was just thinking that they probably would encourage families who have more children and cause the low fertility is a threat for us now, so how do you encourage more couples to have, you know, more children. How do we cause people don’t want to have kids. It’s expensive and childcare is expensive. They don’t have time.
But if you can have more job opportunities for people who can combine some responsibilities and, you know, can still take care of their kids and I can still work, and I think that might actually create a better environment for parents to have children.
Todd Ream: One of the institutions that I’d like to ask about explicitly now is the Church and in what ways, if any, can the Church strengthen marriages and advance the welfare of children amongst parishioners, participants in their congregations?
Wendy Wang: I think Church can do a lot of things because that’s what the Bible is teaching, right? I think about the family, about relationships, about marriage. Marriage is the sacred thing. And then I wish more churches can talk about this.
I feel like some of these days and we’re all trying to, I don’t know, try to meet the needs of the people to attend church, but then sometimes we can forget about, like, we need to really tell the truth. I think about what the Bible says. And I think we should, as church members and as Church, we should be brave enough to tell the truth and because we have the truth.
Todd Ream: Thank you. In what ways, then, can the Church work well with, say, other institutions such as, in the case where I serve and many of our audience members serve Church-related universities? I mean, what ways can we tighten those partnerships and do so in ways that enhance the well-being of marriages and families?
Wendy Wang: I was at Christian university, I think Mount St. Mary University in Maryland last year, giving a talk about Success Sequence and how young adults could achieve that. And I remember the students were really, really interested in that topic. I think a lot of the students were already, you know, the college students, so they already finished the education part and they’re trying to do the work part and, but a lot of them are interested in the marriage part because it’s really difficult for young adults these days to, to find their partner, find a person that they, they feel like they can settle down. So there was a lot of talk about that.
And so I would say there’s definitely interest in that area. There’s definitely a lot of work that we could do. And I know that they are thinking of having a program about marriage and relationships established in the school. So they’re hoping at least as a class, the students can, can take the class and then, you know, for them to really help themselves and then help them. If you have a good relationship and if you know, what to do, like, how do you approach a relationship? How do you find the right partner and then have a, have a happy marriage and then you can go out and teach others, right?
Because if you, if you have failed, like it’s, it’s tough. And so I think education is needed. I, a lot of times people think that, oh, marriage and family, having kids, this is just a natural thing. You could just wing it. You don’t need any guidance. That’s wrong. Yeah there’s a lot of things up there that you can learn about this thing.
I think just like anything else in life, like work and education, success requires work. There’s something we can teach. There’s a lot of things that university and Church can do.
Todd Ream: Thank you. As we close our conversation then, universities have sort of a unique sort of culture, patterns of ways of living life and distinct forms of work. In what ways can colleges, universities, Church-related colleges and universities take advantage of and work with those patterns and those unique qualities and components to strengthen, fit the families of the individuals who come and serve there, and then the children that they’re raising?
Wendy Wang: Yes. I think it’s already a privilege to go to one of these universities. And I think that it’s wonderful that in today’s culture and they can go to a university that was similar minded fellows and Christ followers. And I think we definitely need to support this and also like I said earlier on at Mount St. Mary University and they’re trying to just let the students talk about this and, you know, it’s, it’s not a personal thing because it’s more, more people have similar issues and have concerns or questions and we need to have people there to help and answer the questions to help them.
And there are student ministries on campus. I just think it’s a powerhouse to educate young adults at this life stage so that they have the knowledge and the skill to build healthy relationships, and to have the knowledge, not only knowledge, but practice, because this is something Brad and I talk about sometimes.
Like, as someone who already married and established, and it’s not a bad thing if you’re trying to pair people together, if you know, like, not, not saying that we’re matchmakers, but like, just like, try to hold some activities and maybe like some events and for young adults and maybe that’s how they get to know each other.
We don’t want them to be looking for someone online. We have this community that we could encourage people to get know each other and maybe that’s where they find their spouse. You never know. And we could help. And then also, I just think it’s a beautiful thing. And then you have a great foundation and you get married and you have kids, and then you can teach your kids about the same thing. And then I think the Christian universities, it’s a wonderful community for young adults to be.
Todd Ream: I hope my wife would say the same thing but I can at least say for myself, that it worked for me as a sophomore in college.
Wendy Wang: Did you meet your wife in the university?
Todd Ream: I did in an English class, actually, as a sophomore, so.
Wendy Wang: Yeah, yeah, that’s wonderful. It’s a place to know people, to know your future wife and husband, yeah.
Todd Ream: I hope she’d say the same thing, but I’ll give her the opportunity to confirm that one way or the other, so yep. Thank you, thank you very much, Wendy.
Our guest Wendy Wang, Director of Research for the Institute for Family Studies. Thank you for taking the time to share your insights and wisdom with us.
Wendy Wang: Thank you so much, Todd. It’s been a pleasure. And I wish you the best with all the wonderful things you do at the university.
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Todd Ream: Thank you for joining us for Saturdays at Seven, Christian Scholar’s Review’s conversation series with thought leaders about the academic vocation and the relationship that vocation shares with the Church. We invite you to join us again next week for Saturdays at Seven.
